This Online lecture was organized by Prof. Dr. Ursula Renold
Audio:
Transkript
Dr.med. Ursula Davatz, Prof.Dr. Ursula Renold, Dr. Ladina Rageth, Katie Caves
13.12.2020
What you don’t use, you will loose. What fires together, wires together.
Audio
[00:00:08.350] – Prof. Dr. Ursula Renold
Welcome, dear summit's participants, to another very interesting session we offer you within our summit's
Virtual Institute. And I'm very happy to introduce you to a very famous doctor, psychiatrist and therapist in
Switzerland.
[00:00:29.150] – Prof. Dr. Ursula Renold
She is Dr.med. Ursula Davatz and she has over, I would say, three, four decades of experience dealing
with teenagers. And as you know that we basically work out programs, better alternatives for teenagers in
all the education system. We thought that it's worthwhile to listen to Dr.med. Ursula Davatz and she will
explain what happens in the age of 15 to 20 years when you become an adult and what does this mean
for education.
[00:01:06.230] – Prof. Dr. Ursula Renold
We are very happy that she accepted to give a talk and also to answer to questions. Here we have Katie
Caves, which you know very well, as well as Dr. Ladina Rageth. She is a postdoc in our chair. And also
she is a mother. And therefore she may be also interested in knowing more about what's going on in the
adolescence age. Therefore, I would like to hand over the floor to Dr.med. Ursula Davatz and we look
very forward to learn from you. Thank you very much for joining us.
[00:01:43.670] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
Thank you very much for inviting me for my introduction. I'm a psychiatrist and a family therapist. I have
been trained in the United States for three years in family therapy by one of the most famous originator of
family therapy. Murray Bowen.
[00:02:02.050] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
Yes, I have been working with adolescence for over 40 years, so I think I know a little bit about them. The
theme is teenage phase or adolescence. Adolescence is a very important developmental phase during
which a lot of changes take place in life of these young individuals and also in their brain. I first relate to
the brain. The brain goes through a synaptic pruning, one calls it, which means a cleansing of
unnecessary synaptic junctions, according to the principle, what you don't use, you will lose.
[00:02:49.850] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
A baby brain has many more connections, which is a disturbing situation. When you become an adult,
you have to organize your brain or your brain gets organized.
[00:03:04.310] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
And it gets organized to the principle. What fires together, wires together.
[00:03:11.650] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
That means the brain matures. It solidifies in its function in order to be more efficient. So unimportant
things get blocked or thrown out and important wiring, high roads, I could say get solidified.
[00:03:32.950] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
Socially speaking, this phase of adolescence is the development of the personality of the individual
personality formation. In psychological terms, one calls this individuation.
[00:03:56.030] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
It is a very important psychic development. You develop your personality and the personality is made of
your genes and what you experience. Now, the inherited part of your personality is quite a lot determined
by genetic factors.
[00:04:21.440] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
This is always a discussion. Nature versus nurture. Nature would be the genes and nurture would be the
environment. Both of them have equal importance. And it's not one or the other.
[00:04:36.640] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
In psychiatry, this has been discussed a lot. What is more important? My conclusion is both are equally
important. What is determined by our genes is, for example the temperament sensitivity intellectual
capacities and emotional reactivity, of course to the color of your hair, et cetera, et cetera. But I only talk
about the psychological determinant.
[00:05:10.390] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
In the teenage phase, this genetic determination, your temperament, your genetically determined
personality gets into intense interaction with the social environment and this intense interaction with the
social environment can turn into a fight, into a competition of which teachers and of course, parents are
an important part. Because teachers at that moment are important.
[00:05:49.080] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
I say now primary significant figures in the relationship with these teenagers. And sometimes when the
parents are not functioning anymore the teenagers rely on their teachers.
[00:06:04.470] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
That's why all the teachers are very important for these teenagers during their teenage phase.
[00:06:15.690] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
If the teachers, or equally the parents don't respect the basic genetic makeup of their youngsters they
have in front of them they cannot teach anymore.
[00:06:28.890] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
Because it's a relationship that plays an important role. We always say you don't learn for the teacher but
the teacher is a very important factor in the learning process.
[00:06:41.490] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
If the teachers and the parents, of course don't understand the basic personality makeup of these
teenagers they are absolutely uncapable to teach these youngsters anything anymore.
[00:06:57.760] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
They get into a vicious fight with them a power struggle which the adults usually lose. And that's not worth
it.
[00:07:10.270] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
If the adults win a fight they risk to damage the personality of these youngsters.
[00:07:17.550] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
The youngsters might adapt for certain time but they go back to their own personality and one so called
breaks their personality.
[00:07:32.690] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
What happens at that moment if we adults break the personality of the youngsters? They develop
psychiatric illnesses they get sick and they develop all kinds of psychiatric illnesses.
[00:07:49.690] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
In fact most psychiatric illnesses take their start during adolescence. Maybe not the full blown psychiatric
illness but the start.
[00:08:06.910] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
Now I relate to a special personality type because with that special personality type one can demonstrate
this fight even better. And that's the personality type of ADHD or ADD.
[00:08:22.050] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
At this point, ADHD and ADD still figures in the DSM-5 as an illness, as a psychiatric diagnosis.
[00:08:35.350] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
I say it's not a psychiatric diagnosis. It's only a personality type but particularly vulnerable personality
type.
[00:08:45.370] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
That personality type can be sort of described by its high sensitivity and its impulsivity.
[00:08:57.790] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
The high sensitivity makes that they are much more sensitive to mishandling or wrong handling of them in
that phase.
[00:09:08.930] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
If their social environment is not competent enough to handle these vulnerable teenagers according to
their needs, then as I said before, they may develop all kinds of illnesses.
[00:09:24.560] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
They may develop psychiatric illnesses but also physical illnesses.
[00:09:31.610] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
At that moment when they develop illnesses they're being passed on to the medical model.
[00:09:39.310] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
What the medical model does, the medical system according to the medical model tries to treat them with
psychopharmacology and tries to make them into normotypes.
[00:09:58.040] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
They are not normotypes. If one tries to make normotypes out of them they lose their personality, their
creativity and their special talents.
[00:10:13.670] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
They go against their own original personality, which of course is a pity and is very bad.
[00:10:27.290] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
They might become better performance for some time and might be more efficient in our intellectual,
efficiency driven world but they are sort of trained into a normotype and lose many of their talents.
[00:10:53.010] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
Here is a but/if.
[00:10:55.590] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
Now I come in with a biological knowledge. It is a biological knowledge among scientists that
heterogeneous or in homogeneous populations survived much better than homogeneous ones.
[00:11:19.230] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
This relates to the genetics.
[00:11:23.420] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
I say now by trying to make these teenagers into normotypes, if one tries to make normotypes out of
these special teenagers, such as the teenagers with ADHD and ADD but you can also take other
teenagers, society loses a lot of creative potentials.
[00:11:48.150] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
With these creative potentials they might be useful in solving problems in the future.
[00:11:57.770] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
Since these kind of people can think out of the box.
[00:12:04.570] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
Albert Einstein is one of these examples. He went to the same gymnasium, to the same school I went to
in Aarau. He was not so good in languages, so he had bad grades and one almost threw him out of the
school, the gymnasium, because he had bad grades in languages.
[00:12:28.060] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
Finally one decided to keep him and now one is very proud of him, of course. And the school is called
Einstein House. That's only one example.
[00:12:40.780] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
One could bring many more examples.
[00:12:43.750] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
What I want to stress is, and that's my conclusion to all the teachers and all the parents. In case you as a
teacher get stuck with one of these difficult, stubborn teenagers, don't try to win the power fight.
[00:13:06.190] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
Rather stay with them in contact, learn from them and try to get them to do anything but something of
their own.
[00:13:21.810] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
If they can do something of their own, if they can identify with what they're doing, then they can develop
their personality.
[00:13:32.150] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
If Push comes to shove, I say the personality development is much more important than the acquisition of
knowledge out of books or computers.
[00:13:44.110] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
All the knowledge you can still get later on, while if the personality is damaged, you are lost and you will
have a problem throughout your life.
[00:13:56.910] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
So think of the personality. And there we can even go to Sokrates. A good teacher is always learning from
his students and not just the students learning from the teacher.
[00:14:10.950] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
In order to have this creative process between these youngsters and the teachers or the parents, you
have to relate to them, you have to feel them, you have to understand them, you have to stay in contact
with them.
[00:14:27.000] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
The relationship is the most important thing if things go wrong and then they can go through difficult
phases and all the rest they can pick up later.
[00:14:38.590] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
That's my basic message to you. And you can ask me questions.
[00:14:45.710] – Prof. Dr. Ursula Renold
Thank you very much, Ursula, for that wonderful introduction. And I have to say, I think I did my coming
out within one of our summits units before.
[00:14:59.410] – Prof. Dr. Ursula Renold
I always say, when I was 15 years old, this type of I would say stubborn young girl.
[00:15:12.070] – Prof. Dr. Ursula Renold
I had enough of school at that time and I wanted experience what's going on out there in the world.
[00:15:23.420] – Prof. Dr. Ursula Renold
I told to my parents, look, I don't want to go anymore to school. I want to know how money works. I want
to go to a bank. That's my dream.
[00:15:31.880] – Prof. Dr. Ursula Renold
I have supportive parents because they were very supportive with regard to let's do a vocational
education training in a bank. That's okay for you. We love vocational education training, because one of
my parents did also start their career with vocational education training.
[00:15:52.130] – Prof. Dr. Ursula Renold
I always said that for me it was not the teacher. For me, basically it was these people in the bank, these
adults who were giving me very good advice. You will make your life because of this and that. So we'll ask
a question with in relation to the environment for the teenager.
[00:16:19.550] – Prof. Dr. Ursula Renold
Would you agree that exposing people at the very early stage to this adult world I mean, to the companies
where you have this workbased learning environment, could that be for, I would say, half of the cohort an
advantage because they have different role models and may get some advice from other adults.
[00:16:43.750] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
Yes, I think the interchange with adults who are serious and well meaning and present their conviction
and ideology, this is very important.
[00:16:56.070] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
Not just one adult, but several adults.
[00:16:59.350] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
The adults shouldn't shove the knowledge down the throat of the teenager but just present it.
[00:17:06.160] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
If the teenagers can exchange with such adults who give positive support, give their ideas, their attitude,
et cetera, that's very important.
[00:17:17.470] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
With such a sovereign teenager, it's most important that we don't try to convince them of anything. We
should just present it and then they can take it when they're ready for it.
[00:17:29.810] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
Yeah, I think they are very important, these adult figures around these teenagers.
[00:17:36.630] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
But they have to have the right attitude.
[00:17:39.830] – Dr. Ladina Rageth
Yeah and can I add here that I think especially with regard to vocational education and training, this brings
me also to the conclusion how important the trainers are there.
[00:17:50.460] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
Yes.
[00:17:51.070] – Dr. Ladina Rageth
And that they probably also need to have some psychological basic knowledge to know how to cope with
these young people.
[00:18:00.270] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
Yes, I think it's helpful. Some teachers are natural talents and they can't just relate to these youngsters.
And they do it right because they have a good gut feeling. They can relate. They react to the teenagers.
[00:18:14.210] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
Others get sort of rigid and they don't want to lose in the power fight.
[00:18:20.130] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
I think one shouldn't get into a power fight. One should only relate and then be creative, find new ways.
[00:18:29.020] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
I have supported several teachers of teenagers, coached them, I have given them coaching and we have
found out different ways of handling these teenagers.
[00:18:41.810] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
Creativity is very important at that moment.
[00:18:44.810] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
If one gets stuck in a power fight, then one sort of loses loses one's own image. One doesn't want to lose
that. One feels ashamed.
[00:18:55.080] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
There sometimes they need help and they should go for coaching so they get that help. They shouldn't
feel ashamed to get help.
[00:19:05.570] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
When I was giving lectures to teachers, my introductory phrase was always never teach a teacher.
[00:19:14.450] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
And with the helpers, we helpers doctors and nurses. I say never help a helper because we are the ones
who want to help and the teachers are the ones who want to know.
[00:19:25.660] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
It's important for the teachers that they get some enlargement of their view.
[00:19:37.610] – Dr. Ladina Rageth
Yes, I understand that. And I think I see a lot of similarities with the upbringing of small children.
[00:19:45.310] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
Yeah, there is a saying…
[00:19:48.750] – Dr. Ladina Rageth
As you said, you try to not win the power fight and understand them and guide them, but it's just difficult
sometimes, even if you try to. I think you need or it's good to have some basic knowledge about how their
brain works.
[00:20:07.800] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
That's right, that's right.
[00:20:09.480] – Dr. Ladina Rageth
That's probably the same for the adolescents.
[00:20:11.930] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
Yeah, one can say that. One even says at the age of 3,4, it's a stubborn phase and one compares it to
teenage phase.
[00:20:22.330] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
Yes, you're right, one should get a little bit into the brain of the little child. I just have an example. I have
my grandchild with me and he likes to cook and bake. So we were opening nuts and I wanted to put the
nuts into a little bucket, as one does it. But he got the cooking form out of the cupboard and wanted to put
these nuts into there. And I thought, wow, that's far too big, et cetera. But I let him do it and at the end he
put that form into the oven and he said, I make a cake now. And then I only understood why he took that
cooking form. It was very interesting.
[00:21:08.720] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
So, yeah, we should learn from the kids how they think and not just intervene right away, because then
we destroy their motivation. They have their own motivation according to their own brain.
[00:21:26.850] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
And if we come in too far, we just mitigate them, we limit them and we don't let them develop their own
personality.
[00:21:38.210] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
But that's right. It's difficult sometimes, especially if one is in a hurry and one wants to achieve something,
then one shortens all the processes.
[00:21:52.970] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
The kids, they play more and the teenagers also want to experience more, to learn. It's not always easy.
We have to reflect.
[00:22:07.130] – Dr. Ladina Rageth
And I can imagine that's especially difficult in working life.
[00:22:11.490] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
Absolutely.
[00:22:12.380] – Dr. Ladina Rageth
Where you want them to be productive.
[00:22:16.260] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
Absolutely.
[00:22:18.190] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
Everything goes towards productivity, but sometimes it's worthwhile to take a little longer and then have
more creativity and afterwards more productivity.
[00:22:32.850] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
And all these famous people like Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, et cetera, they were all stubborn and developed
their own thing and these were new things, and society can benefit from that.
[00:22:54.090] – Katie Caves
You've been talking a lot about creativity and you just mentioned stubbornness and relationships. One
thing that we talk about a lot is soft skills. That whole category teamwork and all of that. We know from
research that young people learn soft skills better at work than they do at school. For example, you learn
a lot more about teamwork when you're working with someone who's older than you, someone with a
different education than you do with five people your same age who you've known since you were six. Is
there a psychological backing to that? Is there something about the workplace that helps young people
develop those skills?
[00:23:38.010] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
Yes. Well, I think if they are in school, they have only one adult person and all the rest are peers, and the
peers are more of the same.
[00:23:48.080] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
The peers are important, but of course, if they are in the working world, they have many different adults
with adult personality development, and that's much more interesting.
[00:23:59.650] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
So many students who go to gymnasium or upper grade, they don't find the stuff they have to learn at
school, they don't find it interesting.
[00:24:15.030] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
While if they can relate to other adults creating something which is being used and not just theoretical,
that motivates them much more to learn. I think that's an important point.
[00:24:29.770] – Katie Caves
The motivation is actually that was already my next question. Obviously I'm American and we don't have
any kind of apprenticeship options. One of the things that everyone says in high school all the time is,
when am I ever going to use this? Why am I learning this? You're sitting there in calculus like, well, I have
to do this for college, but I don't know, or any class.
[00:24:56.450] – Katie Caves
For me it was chemistry. And that really affects a lot of students, especially the ones who are not planning
to go to college, to go to university. For them, it's hugely demotivating because they're sitting there
knowing that they don't need to learn what they're learning. It seems to me like having apprenticeship
creates an opportunity for students to really apply what they're learning and be motivated by that. You
have experience in both the USA and in Switzerland. Do you see that really helping young people stay
motivated?
[00:25:29.450] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
Yes, I do think so, because these young people, they want to do something, they want to learn something,
which they can use and not all these theoretical things, all this intellectual stuff.
[00:25:42.900] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
I think it's very helpful. I had to give a course once in ABB and they said they formed teams out of elderly
people, middle age and the youngsters, and they integrated the apprentice much more in the production
process. If the teenager can see what's coming out of it, he is much more motivated.
[00:26:07.510] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
Jean Piaget, who was a biologist but had many theories, he also said one should always have a team
with a senior person, with a middle age and a youngster. They working together, they come out with the
best results. The youngster can still jump borders. The middle aged person is very experienced in reality
and the older person is wise. So this kind of combination is very helpful and the teenager feels integrated.
[00:26:48.310] – Prof. Dr. Ursula Renold
So if you would give advice to parents but also maybe to education reform leaders. If I listen to you, then I
would say especially in the teenager age 15 to 20, the first priority should be that you help the young
person to develop their personality and that they get their self esteem, that they can live and create their
own life and not to some extent I always think it's adult attitude, that my child has to go to the high school
first and then the parents have some plans for the kids.
[00:27:28.580] – Prof. Dr. Ursula Renold
If you underestimate how difficult it is that the person can develop personality and if I listen to you, if they
don't see any necessity to learn a certain subject, that is for me not really helpful to develop the
personality.
[00:27:45.950] – Prof. Dr. Ursula Renold
Could you explain what can happen if you really force young people to an adult dream? My child needs to
go to a college or university and then you push the kid into a high school or a gymnasium, but obviously
he suffers in the sense that they don't like it. What is then the effect on the personality if they do that?
[00:28:13.330] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
I think if you push them and they do it out of obedience, then you dwarf their personality.
[00:28:21.010] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
If I get these people later on in middle age, they haven't really developed their personality. I think one
really dwarfs them.
[00:28:31.830] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
Of course they have to learn skills, but these skills have to be applied and they have to fit with their
personality.
[00:28:38.400] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
Whenever I have a person in therapy, I always look for their interests, for their very special interest, and
not just for what one should do, not for the normotype, but it just doesn't work because one dwarfs them.
[00:28:53.820] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
As I said before, they might get sick. I have many of them, many of them in therapy, and once they are 50
or even older, it's difficult to go back. You can never keep up with that personality development.
[00:29:17.010] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
Yes I think one can dwarf them and one can even make them sick.
[00:29:22.340] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
Maybe I add here, Google has had a study and they were trying to find out how does a good well
functioning team work? And of course one wants many intellectuals, many clever people with a high IQ
and they run many algorithms through these groups.
[00:29:47.410] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
But they finally found out a very simple thing if there are members in a team, if they can have equal
speaking time, so each personality has the equal speaking time and if they can read with the soft skills
where the other person is, can feel the other person, then they function well.
[00:30:15.240] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
And this is again heterogeneous groups work much better than homogeneous ones.
[00:30:23.530] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
They survive better because we need of everything. We don't just need these intellectual hyper flyers.
[00:30:32.810] – Prof. Dr. Ursula Renold
Yeah, we need all of them.
[00:30:37.070] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
Each of them has different skills and they have to learn together. Did I answer your question?
[00:30:46.190] – Prof. Dr. Ursula Renold
Absolutely.
[00:30:50.210] – Dr. Ladina Rageth
Yes. So one of the drawbacks that's often mentioned in connection to the Swiss education system is that
the adolescents have to take decision very early in life. I mean, our system is quite permeable. There's
still a lot of possibilities for mobility later on but still with 15 they have to take a very important decision. So
what do you think? Are the adolescents ready at that time to take that decision or how is it related to the
development of their personality?
[00:31:21.550] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
Yeah, that's a good question. Some are ready, some are very focused on their own thing and one should
let them do. Others are more dreamy and they don't know yet. And yes, that's right. They go to high
school because they don't know yet. What to do. And those I let them do that because then it's not helpful
if one pushes them into a trade, into a special profession.
[00:31:50.110] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
And even if they get out of school and they don't want to go to high school but they still don't know what,
then I say you could go for a year to England.
[00:32:02.970] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
In Switzerland that was in fashion. The girls always went to the French speaking part of Switzerland. Boys
usually don't do that, but they could have a practical year with a farmer or with anything, so they have
time for their personality to form and then maybe they find out what they want.
[00:32:27.890] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
They could also try several things. One shouldn't push them too fast.
[00:32:34.930] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
Parents are usually impatient, you have to know what you want. But if the child doesn't know, and if the
child had no space to make his or her own decision, that child, adolescent, that youngster needs some
space for oneself, probably away from home to find out what he or she wants.
[00:32:58.910] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
There it is worth to wait.
[00:33:05.730] – Dr. Ladina Rageth
Do you have some experience with career counseling? How that helps them? Or if I understand you
correctly, you would even say that they need more time instead of counseling.
[00:33:19.250] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
Career counseling is a good thing and I sent many for career counseling, but it depends on the counselor.
If the counselor is very efficient, oriented. Earlier on, maybe 50 years ago, they said there we need
people. Why don't you go into that job? That's not the right counseling.
[00:33:41.870] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
One really should councel according to the personality. And if the personality is not formed yet, one has to
wait.
[00:33:51.710] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
In the career counseling, they always make tests, aptitude tests, intelligence tests, et cetera. One can say
you're good in that and that and that and in this you're not so good. And then the person can think about it
again. One shouldn't push them. One should help them to find out.
[00:34:10.210] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
And I often do career counseling with 30 year old or even older, trying to help them to find really their job,
their motivation, their intent, how would I say, inclination where they want to go.
[00:34:37.930] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
I also tell them, don't take a job just to make money. Choose the job which suits your personality because
usually it doesn't work. Some people can just work all life in a job, but they don't like it, but they just can
do it.
[00:34:56.260] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
But those who I see, they can't, they just get sick, they get a new job, new job, and they always drop out
of it again. So it's worth it to take a little bit more time to find your own thing.
[00:35:12.950] – Katie Caves
Sort of in line with the career guidance topic. Young people need time and they need options where they
can delay a year if they need to and they need guidance.
[00:35:26.470] – Katie Caves
If you were setting up a new system, most of our countries they we're working with, they either don't really
have a system or it's very small or it needs to change a lot.
[00:35:36.080] – Katie Caves
So if you were designing a program for young people where they would be going to the workplace, what
protections or rules or training would you put in place for them? For example, training for the trainers to
make sure that they know how to deal with young people in the adolescents sort of phase or any
requirements that they get. Not just the rules and regulations, but also they learn something about
creativity. Or what would you do to help make sure that young people are successful when they go to the
workplace?
[00:36:08.250] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
I think if young people start right away in a job, in a workplace, I think these youngsters should always
have a tutor. One person should be designed or defined to take care of that youngster as a tutor.
[00:36:27.670] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
Otherwise I think one just throws them into a pond and they have to swim. And some can swim, but
others, those who are quite sensitive, they get lost.
[00:36:41.570] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
Not the entire team can take care of them. I guess one design person should be the coach, the tutor, and
take care of them. I think that's very important.
[00:36:55.110] – Prof. Dr. Ursula Renold
Related to that question, which I fully support, what you have said if there is no instructor, it's very difficult
to organize the onboarding process so that the young person is successful, starts to understand. I'm
really a member now of that company.
[00:37:15.390] – Prof. Dr. Ursula Renold
I hear two things. If I'm in Switzerland, all this instructor or the HR person who is dealing with the
apprentices, they told me, well, look, after three months we see that this young person, he changes the
attitude from a child up to an adult. It's very quick. This change is very quick. And if I listen to other reform
leaders from around the world they say no, I mean these are kids, they are 15 year old. How can they go
to a company and be successful? That will never work. And the company depends on really prepared
people.
[00:37:54.910] – Prof. Dr. Ursula Renold
So it is kind of a trade off. I would say it's a chicken and egg problem. If you don't get the chance and if
you don't trust in young people that they, as you said, that they're on the way to develop their personality,
maybe they are a little bit more shy to explain what they want to be.
[00:38:16.290] – Prof. Dr. Ursula Renold
In my view, and I experienced that myself, with 15 years, you may have some problems in the very first
week because all are adults.
[00:38:29.520] – Prof. Dr. Ursula Renold
As soon as you get the feeling that you are accepted and that people are proud to have you in the team,
you change your attitude. Do this have to do with what the young person is looking for?
[00:38:43.770] – Prof. Dr. Ursula Renold
Maybe in other countries it's just the stigma of all the people that kids can never do anything?
[00:38:49.420] – Prof. Dr. Ursula Renold
How can we help other countries to understand that they do something good if they are more prepared to
take risks, just to expose young people to those workplaces?
[00:39:00.750] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
I think you have to differentiate into extroverted personalities and the extroverted personality makes it fast
and can probably adjust fast.
[00:39:11.680] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
The introverted shy personality gets lost.
[00:39:17.110] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
They might still have a lot of talent. So I think if you have a youngster who leans more towards the
introverted person and the shy person, one has to take care of them and they have to have somebody
who relates to them and guides them a little bit and protects them when they get stuck or lost or
pressured.
[00:39:42.750] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
The extroverted personality type, I guess those youngsters can adapt quite fast.
[00:39:50.030] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
If they misbehave and if they can't control their impulses, then they get into trouble again and then one
should have somebody who supports them.
[00:40:02.800] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
I had a young lady and she was in an apprenticeship for KV. Somehow her boss treated her in a way that
she got hurt. She was extroverted, but she got hurt. And she said, I give up my my apprenticeship,
finished. I never go back to work. And the mother sent her to me and I discussed the entire situation with
her. I gave her advice how she should go back to her boss, and say, when you said such and such, that
hurt me very much, and that doesn't motivate me. And I almost gave up my apprentice.
[00:40:48.530] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
She did, and her boss reacted well, and he said, thank you very much. I didn't realize that I hurt you so
much. Then she continued her apprenticeship, and she is still a good working woman.
[00:41:08.250] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
So at that moment she needed the support. Now, her mother knew me, so she sent her to me. But in
other situations, they don't have this kind of supervision or coaching at hand.
[00:41:22.900] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
That's why it would be good if there's something in the institution, in the company who takes care of these
teenagers and looks out for these mishaps, is aware of these things because it's not routine.
[00:41:57.770] – Katie Caves
I have one that's kind of the opposite of what we've been discussing. It's sort of the flip side. Sometimes
when we're talking about designing apprenticeships and workplace learning opportunities, there's a very
big focus on mentors and mentorship and what we've just been talking about.
[00:42:17.710] – Katie Caves
In a situation where there's no structure. So in Switzerland, it's a formal education thing. Lots of people do
it. You're going to school, there's a curriculum, you're getting a certificate at the end, and if something
goes wrong, you can talk to the canton. There's a lot of processes and structures around it.
[00:42:43.270] – Katie Caves
Sometimes on one extreme end you see trying to set up a program where it's essentially an internship
with a mentor. A lot of times it's like for high school students over the summer, focus on students at risk
who've never been in a workplace before.
[00:43:03.630] – Katie Caves
Sometimes I have trouble articulating, obviously, we can talk about the systems and all of that and how
it's important to have incentives and a curriculum and be part of the formal education system. But it's hard
for me to articulate why that might be dangerous for the student because it seems like maybe there's not
enough around them, even with a really good mentor.
[00:43:25.290] – Katie Caves
What do you think about that? Is a really good mentor enough? What are the risks? What are the
benefits? What happens if we just have the mentor?
[00:43:34.710] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
I'm not sure if I understood you well, correctly.
[00:43:39.650] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
I think if one goes too much into the direction of everybody wants to help that person and you have a
mentor, you have a therapist. You have a social worker and I don't know what all around and they all talk
onto that one individual, then that's no good at all. It has to be one person, of course, a person who can
relate to the youngster and the rest has to be structured.
[00:44:08.770] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
You're right. There has to be structure. Because if there is structure the youngster can relate to and
understand, he or she can learn to go according to that structure.
[00:44:21.390] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
If there's no structure around, that's very bad. That's very confusing. And if there are only helpers is
around, that's terrible.
[00:44:27.890] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
This is what we get in psychiatry. So we have a youngster who drops out of something, difficulties with
parents, and then many other people are involved.
[00:44:38.510] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
I again just had a case recently and that young boy said: it's only me who can make my career. I don't
want any help.
[00:44:52.830] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
But they all were trying hard to help him and everybody according to his own or her own model, her way
of thinking.
[00:45:01.540] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
Then you can only disturb the youngster. This is as soon as you get into the psychiatric field, then, yeah,
it's only disturbing just one who accompanies and the rest should be an ordinary structure.
[00:45:22.250] – Katie Caves
That's helpful. That does address a big part of the question. And then I have one last question.
[00:45:34.010] – Katie Caves
Internships. Another really common approach to introducing workplace learning is to send regular high
school students to like a six week summer internship. There's no particular task, no curriculum, just sort of
experience. From a psychological and developmental perspective, how is that different than having an
apprenticeship? How are those different? We know from a structural point of view, but for the student,
how is that different?
[00:46:06.790] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
I went for an internship to the United States as a doctor when I was still a medical student and we were
integrated in the structure. We still had to make calls, etc. So it's not a real internship.
[00:46:24.750] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
I think in an apprenticeship, if you are an apprentice, you are integrated into the structure. This is good
because you understand what the structure is and you are useful.
[00:46:40.140] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
Only making an internship, as you said before, you're just drifting around. If you are a curious and an
extroverted student, that is okay. If you are shy, then you get lost.
[00:46:59.700] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
So again, you have to differentiate between these two personalities. And if it's a shy person who goes for
an internship, I think that person should have a tutor assigned.
[00:47:12.910] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
If the person is extroverted, you can let him run.
[00:47:21.250] – Prof. Dr. Ursula Renold
These kind of internships, they just offer so called shadow education.
[00:47:26.850] – Prof. Dr. Ursula Renold
I criticize that because the kids then just have to follow another person to see what they are doing. But in
my view, and with my experience, there should be at least once a day an activity where that young person
is doing something so that they really see I could contribute to that company's work.
[00:47:56.090] – Prof. Dr. Ursula Renold
Otherwise I think there is a similar effect that they just don't see why they should go there, because they
are not useful in the sense that they see at the end of the day what they have done for the company. Do
you agree with that?
[00:49:05.770] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
I think it's not good if you have a shadow education for more than a month or two weeks. For two weeks
you can be a shadow person.
[00:49:18.290] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
I absolutely agree that the youngster should experience some usefulness at least once per day or once a
week.
[00:49:32.050] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
There are people who like to observe, observe, observe, and they make their own conclusions in their
mind, like research people. They probably could do that for a longer period of time. They would research
the entire system and plug it into their mind.
[00:49:52.100] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
Those people, those youngsters who want to be active, they should be able to be included into the
working process and not just follow the professionals.
[00:50:08.910] – Prof. Dr. Ursula Renold
I'd like to come back to with my last question, to one of the very important lessons learned I had from
today's meeting with you.
[00:50:18.470] – Prof. Dr. Ursula Renold
A teacher or parents or adults who are fighting with a teenager should never try to win that fight because
they could damage the personality of the teenager.
[00:50:33.830] – Prof. Dr. Ursula Renold
Obviously this is easily said and we can understand it. However, if you as a parent or a teacher or an
instructor in a company are involved in such a conflict, there you have to be trained in order to quickly
react professionally.
[00:50:56.990] – Prof. Dr. Ursula Renold
I know that you give a lot of help, you teach teachers, you are dealing with parents, you are a mentor of
teachers.
[00:51:06.510] – Prof. Dr. Ursula Renold
Could you describe some steps how these adults can start to understand what is the best behavior in
such a situation?
[00:51:17.250] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
Maybe I might say that: if a youngster is impolite, aggressive or withdraws, I always say to the parents,
and I can say that to the teachers too, whatever that youngster does is not a qualification. Although he
uses qualification.
[00:51:37.770] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
It's not a quality talk like you have at work. So you have to step back two steps or one step back. He
doesn't qualify you. He just expresses his frustration, his dissatisfaction, whatever his emotions.
[00:51:56.590] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
It's the emotions of the youngster. Step back. Don't take it as a quality talk.
[00:52:09.410] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
Then try to get together into a discussion again, try to get into a process again.
[00:52:20.400] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
Whenever I have parents and the youngsters and we are stuck in the solution and you can gain time and
you can say we have a problem here together and I don't know how to solve it, just admit that you have a
problem.
[00:52:35.850] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
Then I always ask the youngsters first, what is your suggestion? How could we solve that problem?
[00:52:42.940] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
So you go on eye to eye, we have a problem. Not you have a problem or I have a problem, we have a
problem.
[00:52:50.630] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
And the WE says we should find a way out of it and then ask a youngster what his suggestion is. Then,
yeah, in my respect, I think one should address this too, etc. get into a process of interaction and problem
solving.
[00:53:09.110] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
Not power fight, but problem solving together. And I think as soon as the youngster realizes you have a
problem too, he gets more adaptive and empathetic and wants to help you.
[00:53:26.990] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
So you learn together. You go together and both of them come out of it without losing their face.
[00:53:34.830] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
Does that make sense?
[00:53:36.240] – Prof. Dr. Ursula Renold
Absolutely. So you accept that young person as an equal partner, with the impression that we can learn
together and we find together a solution. It's even better for both because both because both of us feel
satisfied.
[00:53:54.050] – Prof. Dr. Ursula Renold
Cool. So thank you so much Dr.med. Ursula Davatz, for that wonderful session. It helps a lot.
[00:54:01.610] – Prof. Dr. Ursula Renold
I think we will have a lot of participants who do agree with us that this age is a difficult age and we always
have to be open and to learn more how to deal with that and to try to accept that if a young person is not
really going your way, it doesn't really mean that it's the wrong way.
[00:54:24.110] – Prof. Dr. Ursula Renold
It just means that the person is developing their own personality and goes another way.
[00:54:30.690] – Prof. Dr. Ursula Renold
This is what I think we sometimes underestimate, especially in this very busy time where we think we
don't have time to talk and to solve problems, but even then it takes you a much longer way if you don't
respect that.
[00:54:45.510] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
Absolutely.
[00:54:47.110] – Prof. Dr. Ursula Renold
With that said, thank you very much. We close her the session, but for our participants we will open a
discussion forum. Please enter the questions if you have any questions and we try to get back to Dr.med.
Ursula Davatz too., to look for any answers. So that said, thank you very much and I wish you a
wonderful day.
[00:55:13.410] – Dr.med. Ursula Davatz
Thank you too. Same to you. Okay, bye-bye.
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